DePaul 93, Iowa 78: Demonized

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RefinedBean's picture

You know what this program needs? Unheralded twins who are legacy recruits. That'll get us where we want to be.

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therealCatnuts's picture

We want Texas Tech! 

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women, and song. The other half I wasted.

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StretchLeft's picture

Does this mean Iowa is not playing at a CBI runner up level?

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Costco Card Rammin' Greg Davis's picture

I have a friend who considers himself a Hawkeye basketball guru. Last week, he predicted this team to finish top-4 in the B1G. I don't think he appreciated when I laughed at him. Was he just some outlier, or is there a pocket of this fan base that actually believed this would be a really good team? 

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HoustonHawkeye's picture

1.  Chazz doesn't always say Iowa teams are good - he simply believes they're "good enough" that they shouldn't be criticized.

2.  Chazz will allow all kinds of shit from KF/football but has been much quicker to criticize Fran about this "temper issues" and "yelling" and "not niceness".

3.  That said, Chazz is still a nice guy overall.

I strongly prefer winning over losing.

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chitownhawkeye's picture

I just don't see what they're seeing.  I didn't see it before the season, doubly so now.  There's no reason to believe the D will improve, JBo is at best hobbled (my money is still on him shutting it down, but who knows), Garza and Weiskamp looked average.

I'd love to be wrong, but what are they seeing/projecting?

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tyger1147's picture

I think a lot of people completely underestimate what Tyler Cook and Isaiah Moss brought to the table. People appreciated Baer, but I think they recognized Moss and Cook were good players but not quite accepted how important to the team they were. One of the highest FT-getters in the country and a 42% 3FG% (4th in the B1G) was not really recognized.

There was nothing spectacular about Moss and Cook and even Baer, I guess, but that's a great FT getter and 2 great 3FG% players and that's... tough to lose.

meh

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BlockerHawk's picture

Welp, looks like another year of not playing defense and bouncing the ball off our foot out of bounds. I remember when we had a respected basketball program. Problem is that it was in 1997 and I was fifteen. 22 years ago. There isn’t a recruit out there that remembers a strong basketball program. I just don’t see this getting better

Will twerk for food

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BrimstoneBaritoneAntiCycloneRollingStone's picture

Well it seems like this season is going to go how I thought it would. Is it really too much to ask for a respectable basketball program? Fuck I'd even trade you 2 win football seasons for sweet 16's I love basketball that much. I like Fran but I think he deserves to be on the hot seat if this year doesn't produce a tournament appearance, and I have zero confidence in that right now.

There is no fucking drummer better than Neil Peart

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DC_HAWK's picture

Fran will firmly be in the hot seat by the middle of the season, at latest. He sort of admitted in the post game news conference that the problems were not fixable (the players are undeniably un-athletic and . . . not very good). That's a really strange problem to have in year 10 of your coaching career.

Overall, it was about as bad a weekend as you could have. Football loses heart breaker to Wisconsin, Iowa misses on Xavier Foster (a lifelong Hawkeye fan with an uncle that played for the hawks) to the Cyclones, and basketball team gets smoked by DePaul. Woof.

Garbage Blog Aficionado

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Chuck Long Duk Dong's picture

He sort of admitted in the post game news conference that the problems were not fixable.

“I think you’re always concerned when you don’t play well,” McCaffery said. “I’m not concerned that this team has problems that are not fixable. It’s a good team, good group of young men, and we’ll be better.”

no more yankey Chuck's wankey

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Costco Card Rammin' Greg Davis's picture

I disagree. The double-negative indicates he believes the problems ARE fixable. 

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Chuck Long Duk Dong's picture

that’s the point i was trying to make. i think? now i’m confused. 

no more yankey Chuck's wankey

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DC_HAWK's picture

I'm missing something. Why do you think Fran's statement is a "double-negative"?

Garbage Blog Aficionado

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DC_HAWK's picture

That's exactly the statement I had in mind, though Fran didn't single out athleticism like I did. 

Garbage Blog Aficionado

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chitownhawkeye's picture

What really bothers me is that this was a game that even if if it wasn't going well, Garza should have been strong, and he was at best just ok.  5-12 shooting?  Conference play is going eat him, and them alive. 

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Ricky D's Triple Double's picture

A $6 ticket bought me a row-13 view of the same old deficiencies. Granted, DePaul seemingly couldn’t miss and the athleticism gap was palpable.

Perimeter defense was lacking. Iowa also has a habit of not covering the baseline, especially in zone, which is simply unacceptable. They allow players to get behind the defense and get easy buckets.

Evelyn is a slightly bigger Maishe Dailey. He looks like a non-factor on offense who never looks for his own shot.

Looks like another year without a player who can drive or create their own shot. DePaul had about four on the floor at all times. We can’t find one (Toussaint has potential). *Shrug emoji*

 

A magical night in Cleveland.

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scratch where it itches's picture

Pig shit you say? Smells like $7 Billion to me.

Also, fire Gary Barta.

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StretchLeft's picture

At least we are not Nebraska...

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Mike Jones's picture

Easy, that’s how our coaches keep getting contract extensions. 

Hawkeye Compliance is stalking me on Twitter.

BlockerHawk's picture

We aren’t that far off. Nebraska has a proven coach now. I wouldn’t be surprised if Nebraska passes us in the next couple of years

Will twerk for food

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krotto07's picture

I’d honestly be surprised if they didn’t.

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rosko-p's picture

The players appeared to give no shits last night.  And they ran  like they were wearing cinder blocks in place of sneakers. 

Wiscillinowa Native

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Costco Card Rammin' Greg Davis's picture

I am disturbed at the lack of diversity on this team. Interpret that how you will.

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dampfartmoldpants's picture

You're a bigot?

“A child born to another woman calls me mommy. The magnitude of that tragedy and the depth of that privilege are not lost on me.” – Jody Landers

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krotto07's picture

African Americans make up a small percentage of the country, yet the overwhelming majority of the NBA.  It doesn’t take a racist (simply a realist) to gather that in general, African Americans are better basketball players.  That doesn’t mean all white players suck, and every black person is a great basketball player

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Costco Card Rammin' Greg Davis's picture

You're a bigot?

Quite the opposite.

Perhaps I shouldn't have invited you to interpret that how you will. My mistake. 

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Brinzerian Wisdom's picture

Bigoted against a lack of diversity?  I suppose so.

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Samilcar's picture

I noticed that as well when the starting lineups were pictured on screen prior to the game. But both starting fives had the exact same lack of diversity. DePaul is simply a (much) better team than Iowa, racial bell curves be damned.

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StretchLeft's picture

How early is too early to start panicking? On one hand, last night was about as bad as they’ve looked since Frans first year. This was against a team that in paper seems like they should be Iowa’s floor (avg NIT team). On the other hand, it’s game 2 and 40% of the starters didn’t play last year. Plus, 15-16 was a disaster noncon year and they put together a January for the ages.  

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RossWB's picture

Plus, 15-16 was a disaster noncon year and they put together a January for the ages.  

Are you thinking of a different season? Iowa went 9-3 in non-conf play that year, with the three losses being close neutral court losses to Dayton and Notre Dame and a 1-point road loss at Iowa State (in a game that Iowa led for a long time). 

That Iowa team also had senior-year Jarrod Uthoff, Adam Woodbury, Mike Gesell, and Anthony Clemmons, plus junior-year Peter Jok. That team had a lot more talent and experience than this one. Wieskamp, Garza, and JBo (if healthy) are probably the only players from this year's team who would even get minutes on that team. 

StretchLeft's picture

That is the year I was thinking. It was only 3 losses but the schedule was pretty weak. Just looked...forgot Wichita was in the schedule that year. That is as quality of a NC win as any. 

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RossWB's picture

If you could trade rosters and coaching staffs with DePaul straight up -- would you do it? 

Riles23's picture

Charlie Moore is leaps and bounds better than anyone on our roster, so yes.

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HoustonHawkeye's picture

But Moore puts you at ri$k of $anction$, $o....

I strongly prefer winning over losing.

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Ricky D's Triple Double's picture

I'd trade the roster, not the coaching staff.

Let's not forget Leitao bombed out at Virginia, and before this 4-0 start, he was a combined 48-82 the past four seasons at DePaul.

A magical night in Cleveland.

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RossWB's picture

Probably an overreaction on my part in terms of the coaching staff, but DePaul at least seems to be trending up, whereas Iowa is... decidedly not. 

And it's frustrating to see so many of the same issues recur year after year. Like the lazy passing. Or the inability to defend the baseline. That shit has been going on for several seasons at this point and it just doesn't get fixed. Maddening. 

Ricky D's Triple Double's picture

The frustration is beyond warranted, and I'd certainly trade for Leitao's recruiting. At times when Fran has decent rosters, his coaching foibles are at least partially covered. But when the overall roster quality dips, the issues become glaring. 

A magical night in Cleveland.

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iowabeakster's picture

Yes.  I would trade.  My feelings about Fran have soured tremendously.   I always hated the ridiculous tantrums.  For that stupid shit?  I would never have been upset to see him get fired.  It's embarrassing for anybody, even me and I'm just a fan.

But he was better than what preceded him.  I am grateful for that.  He's brought in a number of great kids and I've enjoyed watching the ups and downs.

But the truth is, his recruiting is very poor and often doesn't match his philosophy at all.  He wants his team to "run"... but my slow ass could beat half his players in wind sprints.   Most of his players can't dribble.  Most can't pass.  And nobody on his team can ever drive to lane and finish.   How is that possible?  I cheer for any player that goes out there and plays hard, no matter the result.  I'm just sick of Fran filling his rosters with players who can't compete in the conference, or the tournament, or the non-con.  

Because we can all agree, that no matter how the trash got to the river, it just shouldn't be there. -river guy

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Chuck Long Duk Dong's picture

my slow ass could beat half his players in wind sprints.

no you could not. 

no more yankey Chuck's wankey

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HoustonHawkeye's picture

So Fran's temper tantrums are worthy of dismissal, yet so many say so little about KF's years of tantrums on the sidelines (back when he was still fighting for his 1st lifetime extension) or Brian's tantrums in the booth and on the field?

I strongly prefer winning over losing.

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HoyaGoon's picture

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything and is a weird "defense" of Fran a few fans seem to be employing.

Just another garbage commenter spreading my *sshole all over the internet.

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IowaPharmer's picture

I think we generally give KF a pass if he acts out, and I’m not debating whether that’s fair or not. OTOH, I’m pretty sure we all think Brian is a meathead and should be banished to the back corner stall of the locker room, head first, along with his playbook. 

"I know what I'm suggesting." -therealCatnuts

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krotto07's picture

Part of that could be the sport.  Football lends itself to aggressiveness, anger, violence etc. Basketball also has your coaches right there, front and center near the action moreso than football

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HoustonHawkeye's picture

Izzo.

Calipari.

Williams.

Shusheski.

Huggins.

Former UCLA Coach.  

Most Top 20 coaches.

All are loudmouth, temper tantrum boys that are praised for their "intensity" and "aggressive" coaching nature.  Football being a more aggressive sport doesn't, nor should it, excuse coaching tantrums.  I just laugh that some still point to Fran's "temper" when he's had very few T's the last 5 years - instead of his stall at raising the level of the program - which is where people should focus because there's plenty to go at there.

I strongly prefer winning over losing.

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krotto07's picture

I Very much agree with the last part

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Beltway Hawk's picture

(edit: response to Houston, above)

I don't really have a "side" in this as I'm fairly disillusioned by both coaches, but I sort of agree that KF & BF seem to get more of the benefit of the doubt on sideline behavior (tho I don't think Fran's tantrums warrant dismissal) and I wonder if basketball coaches generally dressing "better" has anything to do with the expectations of better behavior. For example, Fran and most coaches wear a suit and tie, and most football coaches wear a hoodie with team logos on it (football coach clothes have gone downhill a bit in the last couple of decades, but when Landry coached in a suit and tie, he was pretty much an outlier even then...he even wore a hat, like...a nice hat, not a baseball cap, which made him seem even more old-school).

Does this unconsciously lead people to expect more "gentlemanly" behavior from basketball coaches, and more sailor-like behavior from football coaches? Humans are very social and have a lot of their behavior shaped by circumstances and social cues, which include clothing. Overall, I think the expectations for the FB and BB teams are fairly even--not expecting amazing success, but expecting winning most of their games and trying to win conference championships. If you can call making the NCAA Tournament and winning 9 football games (8/4+1 or 9/3+0) equivalent, I think those are the baseline "expectations," although of course fans also want more. KF is meeting the expectations more often than not, and Fran is not, so that may play into the frustration with him also. 

"There is no reason in the world why we shouldn't fight for the preservation of a chance to live freely, no reason why we shouldn't suffer to uphold that which we want to endure." -Nile Kinnick

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Hawktober's picture

My thoughts from Carver (in no particular order):

  • The crowd was poor.  Carver was maybe half full for a decent opponent, which was disappointing.  My only consolation is that this had no impact on the game's result.
  • Coach Levitao earned my respect mid-way through the 2nd when he called off one of his guys who was constantly harassing our transitions from turnovers or defensive rebounds to offense.  The guy was playing hard all game, but it was nice to see their coach tell him to back off, considering their 20-ish point lead at the time.
  • Levitao promptly lost back the respect he'd earned when he left his normal rotation guys (including some starters) in the game for the final minutes.  He had half a dozen guys at the end of his bench that absolutely should have had a chance to play last night.  I felt bad for those guys not getting into the game.  This was compounded for me by the fact that Fran was playing all bench guys for the final few minutes.  When the losing coach is calling off his dogs, the winning coach should follow suit.
  • I was pleased by the effort of our bench guys (especially Toussaint).  Their play to end the game is what finally allowed us to chip into the lead.  When our starters finally left the game, the margin was equal (or within a point) of the halftime deficit of 23.
  • Kriener should start in place of Nunge.  I know that Fran probably wants to keep Kriener fresh to spell Garza, but I think Ryan has earned it and should be playing more.
  • Nunge hasn't shown that he belongs out there.  His year off doesn't appear to have made him any more ready for a B1G schedule.
  • Without Bohannon (or another shooting threat), teams are going to be able to follow DePaul's lead and just stick to Wieskamp and force anyone else to make a play.  Joe hasn't shown an ability to make his own shot against a good defender, and that showed last night.
  • Garza shouldn't get the ball so much when he's more than 10 feet from the basket.  He doesn't have good enough handles or footwork to take the ball into a crowded lane to take on 2 or 3 guys.  He tried this way too many times and was successful maybe one or two times.  He needs to either take a short jumper or hook shot or just kick it out to the perimeter when the extra defender(s) crash.
  • We made a lot of lazy or poorly timed passes.  What frustrated me most about this is the fact that it didn't seem to get any better as the game went on.
  • DePaul just had more or gave more of everything last night: athleticism, hustle, effort, fun, etc.  Our guys didn't seem too interested.  Maybe this was because we were going in with just 1 real game together versus their 3.  Let's hope that was a much larger factor than I was expecting before the game.
  • This team doesn't appear to have a leader.  Without Bohannon, I didn't see anyone doing much to rally the guys on the court.  I got the feeling early on that prior to Kriener coming in, all the guys were waiting for someone else to make a play.
  • I loved the uniforms.  They have the old-school look I have enjoyed seeing in the past and brought some of the new flair from the updated look.
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Ricky D's Triple Double's picture

Solid breakdown of last night's action. In regard to your second-to-last point, I would seriously ask when has Iowa had a true leader under McCaffery?

Fran's tenure at Iowa has been marked with multiple reserved players. Think of the number of players described as quiet or reserved during the past 10 years: Marble, Uthoff, Gesell, Baer. Woodbury was probably the closest thing to an on-court motivator the program has had under McCaffery. Why that's been the case is up for discussion, but there certainly seems to be something about recruiting and culture that dampens leadership potential. 

A magical night in Cleveland.

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Hawktober's picture

I felt like Jordan filled the leadership role last year, with Cook being the energy guy.  We can't expect Jordan to fill either role this year when he's getting 15-20 minutes.  Maybe Connor could fill one or the other of those roles, but I haven't seen him try to do that yet.

Overall, though, you're correct.  We've lacked on-court leadership on most of Fran's teams.  It just struck me last night that I can't identify anyone on the roster who I think is a likely leader, either vocally or emotionally.

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Beltway Hawk's picture

Garza is fiery and can be someone the players can rally around, but on the other hand, it takes 2 to tango, and if these guys aren't playing hard, a good example isn't necessarily going to be the leader they need to kick them in the ass. I would say more, but it would just be an anti-young people rant from an old guy, so...

"There is no reason in the world why we shouldn't fight for the preservation of a chance to live freely, no reason why we shouldn't suffer to uphold that which we want to endure." -Nile Kinnick

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Mike Jones's picture

You went to the game? And stayed the whole time? Look at this guy being a real fan.

A discussion we had in the Slack channel was:

  1. What, exactly does Jack Nunge do well? The answer appears to be nothing. Right now, anyway.
  2. Why is it that Iowa has so much size but is always getting outrebounded by guys 3-4 inches than their bigs?

Hawkeye Compliance is stalking me on Twitter.

Mike Jones's picture

* - Shorter than their bigs?

Seriously, can we not get an edit function on this website? What sort of a hotel is this?

Hawkeye Compliance is stalking me on Twitter.

Brinzerian Wisdom's picture

Garza, Kreiner, Nunge, and Pemsl are not exactly known for their jumping ability. 

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houksyndrome's picture

And we don't box out either so. . .

Neil Peart stands alone

Here, have some of these smelling salts.

FUBAR's picture

You don't need to jump to be a good rebounder. Position and perseverance ie boxing out, is all you need. It needs to be taught and isn't.

F.erentz U.B.er Alles, R.ight?

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HoustonHawkeye's picture

It used to be taught in Junior High - now with all the "All-Star Squads" in AAU, ain't nobody doin' the fundamentals anymore cuz it ain't cool, cuz...

I strongly prefer winning over losing.

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Hawktober's picture

Surprisingly, most of the half-full crowd stayed to the end.  My group was included in that.  We said we'd leave if we got down 30, but I don't think it ever got past 25.

1. I agree with that.  My step-son and I have decided to call him Jack "Nun" until he does something worth a darn.  Then maybe we'll give him the "ge".  How many good plays has he made? "Nun".
2. I believe it is a combination of factors.  First, we are typically less athletic than our opponents (which I believe someone else said already).  Second, I don't see us using proper rebounding techniques (i.e. find a body and put your back side into him) very frequently.  Third, we don't seem to coach being aggressive at going after the ball in the air or off a long bounce.  We also seem to let ourselves cluster up under the basket and look up in the air to wait for the ball.  Meanwhile, our opponents are getting into position while the ball is on the way to the basket and are in the right place to beat us to the ball.  Or they just out-jump us and/or knock it away from us.

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chitownhawkeye's picture

The crowd was poor

I don't see that changing any time soon.  Especially if this is what they're going to be treated to.

As far as leaders?  May.  White.  Then it gets dicey. 

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IAinCA's picture

Welp, it’s clear this team is sorely missing Tyler Cook or a similar type of player. Besides Garza there’s no one who can create their own shots.
 

Toussaint has the potential to be a difference maker, he should be starting. I’d overlook the turnovers and hope the early experience will eventually result in a less lifeless team.

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Brinzerian Wisdom's picture

This team cannot guard on ball.  So if they aren't going to rotate well either, teams will score 100 against them every night.  If multiple guys are shooting well, we can hang.  If they are not, we are dead in the water.  

Also, and I know some are real sensitive about this, but this team is a "Stuff white people like" meme.   And that's not unforeseeable when the heart of your team is basically the Eastern Iowa All Stars.  Iowa is not getting the recruits to overcome this, and I just don't see a way forward that leads to sustained success with Iowa as they are currently constructed.  I will root hard for the boys from IC, Musky, and CR as much as anyone, but the reality is that national championship teams are not born and raised in the cornfields of the Iowa and Cedar valleys.

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scratch where it itches's picture

Ryan Kriener is from Northwest Iowa, you racist, uh... Iowa regionist! 

Pig shit you say? Smells like $7 Billion to me.

Also, fire Gary Barta.

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Riles23's picture

only lived there for like two years though.  spent the formative years in the exciting hub* of Northeast Iowa, New Hampton.

* not exciting or a hub.

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HoyaGoon's picture

Is the “New” referencing Hampton, VA? Because I can see the similarities between them.

Just another garbage commenter spreading my *sshole all over the internet.

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don1969's picture

There is a Hampton, Iowa in Franklin County.  However, I have no idea if that is the reason for the New in New Hampton.

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don1969's picture

Further research yielded this from Wikipedia: "New Hampton was founded about 1855. It is named after New Hampton, New Hampshire, the native town of one of its founders."

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Riles23's picture

we have a McDonald's AND a Subway.

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HoyaGoon's picture

I forgot to add the sarcasm font. 

Just another garbage commenter spreading my *sshole all over the internet.

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don1969's picture

While this game gives Hawk fans a lot to worry about, I would like to mention two things.

1) Nunge is out of his element and contributes nothing.  Kriener comes in, immediately starts scoring and is pretty much our only offense.  What does that get him?  A seat on the bench so that Fran's undersized son can come in and do nothing.  I wonder if other coaches will tell recruits if they go to Iowa, they won't get minutes because they will go to the coach's kid?  

2)  How many point-blank, bunny layups can Garza miss?  

I'm afraid this is going to be a long season.  Thank goodness for Iowa wrestling. 

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HerkyForMeHerkyForYou's picture

I had flashbacks to woody with the missed bunnies. Drives me insane

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Hawktober's picture

1.  I agree that Kriener brings more to the table than Nunge and Patrick.  But even including the final 4ish minutes after Fran put in the reserves, Patrick only got 11 minutes last night.  That's hardly a crime.  Kriener played 18 minutes off the bench, which was 5th most after all the starters not named Nunge.  Could he play more?  Yes.  But I think his additional time should come from Nunge, not Patrick.  Nunge has had two years of practice to get better.  Patrick is still trying to get things figured out.  I'm okay with him getting some time. 

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Close Shave America's picture

No big deal. Iowa is a Wrestling and Women's Basketball school anyway!

America, you're looking good: handsome, free and tall

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rosko-p's picture

Being totally underprepared and uncoached is my defense...of the players.  They could have cared less. Iowa's putative star was straight up bored the whole time. 

Wiscillinowa Native

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tyger1147's picture

I said this above, but I'll say it here: I think people - myself included - really underestimated how important Tyler Cook and Isaiah Moss were to the program. Baer is rightly rated (not saying overrated at all), but the combination of your 2 (or 2 of top 4) most athletic players, one that was a top FT getter and one that was a to 3-pt shooter is not appreciated. People seemed to focus on their flaws so much; much more than other players. And that kind of covered up that they were actually pretty darned good players - and I think ESPECIALLY the way they kind of complemented each other in that Cook could help put a LOT of pressure on the inside D and Moss and Baer could hit from outside.

I wonder if Garza is going to look terrible this year, or at least the start, trying to adjust as the main big man focus.

meh

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FUBAR's picture

Yeah, they looked terrible last night, no question. Couple things though - DePaul is good. A Jayhawk transfer, Illini transfer (who loves playing at Carver btw) and just some good ball players up and down. Lavin kept saying on TV he'd picked them as the sleeper of the Big East. I think Iowa really overlooked them a bit based on recent history. 2nd, this was the 2nd game and a major bump up in competition. We could look back and see this game as being a good thing, a real wake up call. 3) Nothing changes. Iowa under Fran is gonna be Iowa under Fran. Same dumb things are going to bite us in the ass. I just hope we can find our shot and get to the line more. Without them, no Iowa team under Fran is competitive. None. So, here's to hoping they find their shot and start getting fouled.

F.erentz U.B.er Alles, R.ight?

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BrimstoneBaritoneAntiCycloneRollingStone's picture

Fran is to basketball what Kirk is to football. All the same weaknesses never change but once in a while they go on a run and fool you into thinking things are different this time. I love Fran but I think he needs to go, same with Kirk. I think this year might be the darkest yet of Fran's tenure excluding his first couple years when we were digging out of the crater. I honestly see no positives about this season or this team or the team in the next couple years. Oh well at least we don't have little Lickliter starting for us.

There is no fucking drummer better than Neil Peart

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Chuck Long Duk Dong's picture

Fran is to basketball what Kirk is to football.

just... no. 

no more yankey Chuck's wankey

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Iagander's picture

Quite the opposites actually, one all offense no defense, the other the opposite. Not surprisingly the one with a defense is more successful.

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HoustonHawkeye's picture

I guess it depends upon what you call "successful"...

I strongly prefer winning over losing.

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Iagander's picture

I'd call top 10 national finishes successful. When's the last time Iowa's basketball accomplished that?

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BrimstoneBaritoneAntiCycloneRollingStone's picture

I meant in the sense that both are absolutely stuck in their ways and refuse to change no matter what the results are. They both constantly do the same things over and over with only occasional meaningful success, yet think their way is the right way. As far as offense vs defense philosophies go yes they are polar opposites.

There is no fucking drummer better than Neil Peart

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